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why has no one does this?

Discussion in 'VR - VS Holden Commodore (1993 - 1997)' started by Callum433, Apr 28, 2019.

  1. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    so i've been digging around for a while as i wanted to see how viable a commodore would be for me to build (specifically drift but can apply to any other Motorsport) so i have 2 things to discuss.

    1st of all why the f**k has no one does an r154/ay5/mau5 conversion when they bolt directly to a Buick/ecotec? (yes i have proof) there almost just as strong as the t56 not even counting the carbon syncroed wide gear ay5 from the hummers. most of those transmissions are stupid cheap too and you dont need to buy an adapter for it so whats the downside?

    and 2nd has anyone ever put any ve series rear cradles and diffs into earlier commos? they have a much better design and from what i can tell have basically the same width? could be very wrong but open to correction. discuss away
     
  2. immortality

    immortality Can't live without smoky bacon! Staff Member

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    Don't know about the transmissions but the VE rear cradle would never fit as the chassis is completely different. I'm sure it could be done with a lot of fabrication but then you would need to have the car engineered to suit if it was to be driven on the road.
     
  3. losh1971

    losh1971 Well-Known Member

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    I think you'll find that Commodores are not ideal drift cars because they are a little long.
     
  4. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    im not too worried about putting the car on the road if i was to go ahead with this, im aware of the chassis differences but how difficult would it be? make new boxed mounts and reference points to put everything back to centre? most of the differences i can see are that there is no rear mounts due to it previously being back of diff and a shorter distance between front mount and diff centreline (so the whole cradle would need to be moved back to re centre the diff and wheels in the wheel wells)
    and losh i was unnaware of the length factor? i thought the wheel base was similar to s14s and 13s but thats all heresay buy the sounds of it lol
     
  5. wraith

    wraith Hand over the dog bikkies

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    Parts availability and upgrade cost is the main determining factor.
     
  6. immortality

    immortality Can't live without smoky bacon! Staff Member

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    I'd say you would need to completely modify the rear section of the VS to make the VE cradle fit. Cost Vs Benefit.

    I'd think you would need to cut out the whole rear section of the VS body pan then jig up the VE rear cradle make all new mounting points to suit and then fill in the floor with new sheet steel.
     
  7. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    ah ok true, thought it might be similar to some irs conversions in r31s were new box secions were just welded in with reverence to certain points to centre everything. im assuming in order to get a good idea id need to find a vr/s wreck and ve cradle to see how possible it is
     
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  8. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Redblock Jesus

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Top Pic, VS > Cradle
    Bottom Pic VE Cradle.

    Not only would you have the rear mounts to somewhere on the chassis to fab, but also a body line to modify to fit the curvature and bolt locations.

    Added benefit to upwards of 50 hours of labour? Probably not enough to make it worthwhile.
     
  9. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    yeah i see what you mean, the fronts would be easier as they would just need welded box mounts closer to were the original spring would sit. not quite sure what you mean by body line adjustment? the rear depending if it sits on the inside or outside of the rails (not sure were the vr/vs rails finish either) could potentially only need a raised box section also. not sure if any of that makes sense but yes definitely a good estimation at 50 hours but that also depends on the level of fab done. one could potentially just weld in a ve re chassis section but that open a whole other can of worms
     
  10. gtrboyy

    gtrboyy Well-Known Member

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    Possibly due to fact that v6 t5 are dirt cheap to replace also with irs cars only need to turn down diff yoke to fit stronger vt-z diff

    Drifting was easier on low powered v6 t5 cars compared to burnout comps where cars moo-manged to death then scrapped

    These days vt model is the dirt cheap disposable that vn used to be.

    If serious check out Showtime Custom & Fabrication for drift gear
     
  11. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    yeah i gather that but good t5s are basically the same price as a ay5/mau5 now, so why pay the same price or more in some cases when you can get a waaaay better transmission and only have to put it in once as a ecotect wouldnt brake it unless you make serious power. im definitely aware of showtime custom and would go with there lock kits of i chose to go down the commodore path. just dont wanna deal with the older style irs issues and the solid axles arent very strong either. (the chosen car will not have a holden motor in it)
     
  12. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Redblock Jesus

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    Body line adjustment, was more of an under-body adjustment. The VS > VZ cradles are rather flat;

    [​IMG]

    but the VE cradles are quite tall, with that the floor would likely need to be cut to accomodate it while also ensuring you've got enough rigidity added in for those two rear mounts.
     
  13. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    i have noticed that they are definitely a taller cradle compared to the earlier type. [​IMG] [​IMG]
    but looking at some pictures they do seem to still have a tilt. to get the best idea id have to measure the hight from both subframes between the front cradle mount and the highest point on the cradles if that makes sense
     
  14. _R_J_K_

    _R_J_K_ Well-Known Member

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    Pics please, without a conversion bell housing I don't see how any of them could, particularly as one is a Toyota and the other has it's own GM bolt pattern. Also, have you priced up a R154 vs. a T56? It's not exactly like they're common either, even 1JZ owners are turning to T56s.

    There's a few Ecotec/T5 drifters, the engines are capable, it's just that pre-VE Commodores have a cheap suspension design that doesn't accommodate adjustment, not to mention the aftermarket for Commodore handling is extremely poor.

    If I were looking for a cheap hack it would be an AU Falcon with Shockworks coilovers or maybe an old Beamer or a cheap VE.

    Not at all, JZX90/JZX100 is one of the most popular competition cars these days, they're just as long if not longer. Weight distribution probably is an issue for the old Commo tho.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  15. _R_J_K_

    _R_J_K_ Well-Known Member

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    The other problem you'll face is that if you do that transplant the rear track will be much wider than the front. You'll also need to account for the large mounting surface of the top of the VE shock absorber or use a coilover from something else and have it come through the floor to a larger frame attached to the car.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2019
  16. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    [​IMG]
    this bellhousing right here is what youd need (there are many that fit but this is the best pic) a lot of isuzu motors in particular used the gm 60 degree bolt pattern as they were offering there own vehicles for gm (rodeo and such) the rodeo v6 and many other models of that era came with a 5 speed ar5/mau5 (exactly the same centre as r154 with revised internals but all parts are interchangeable)

    ar5s and mau5s are the r154s bigger brothers with apparently slightly wider gears and some even coming with carbon syncroes or more syncroes at the minimum, as for price these transmissions are litterally everywhere in 4x2 models and can be had for no more than an ecotec engine while being able to hold potentially more than an r154 (no one to my knowlage has broken one from power "yet") given they have better internals. i wasnt comparing price as such more power handling capability. r154s are definitely getting hard to find in good condition but ar5s and mau5s are abundant and very cheap achieving the same or more power capabilities witch definitely put them as competitors for the t56

    i never said ecotecs weren't capable at all, i have seen quiet a few make well over 500hp and drag cars pushing over 1000hp, as for the t5 tho they are basically glass if you go above moderate torque.

    i would go an au but id be going back to a solid axle and tbh i don't like there look or them in general (not hating just preference) as for beamer ive been told they are a damn headache especially if i need parts haha

    from some googling the track width looked almost identicle but i may have miss read, do you have exact specs?
     
  17. Sabbath'

    Sabbath' Redblock Jesus

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    VS - Rear track (mm): 1478 - 1491
    VE - Rear track (mm): 1608 - 1618
     
  18. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    ah ok so about 100mm each side give or take. im sure with some panel work plus a lock kit pushing the front out a fair distance it would balance out. if it were much more it might not work tho
    also is that for irs vs or solid vs? are there differences?
     
  19. _R_J_K_

    _R_J_K_ Well-Known Member

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    Lock kit won't push track out in the way you think it will for a distance like that, it'll just give you demon camber on the front because the top of the McPherson strut stays in the same place and 100mm is a lot, probably too much to even cover with adjustable strut tops. TBH, I wouldn't get a lock kit until you're reaching the limits of your driving ability with the stock setup. Lock kits don't make you a better driver but they do cover for a lot of mistakes which you should be using to further your ability.

    What did you have in mind for suspension?
     
  20. Callum433

    Callum433 Member

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    Very true and who doesn't like camber lol but I definitely agree with what you said and ideally I wouldn't have the lock kit until after I'm competent and at the cars steering limits.
    As for suspension I would more than likely start with very stiff coils up front with away bars if you can get aftermarket. And rears well probably stock or soft coils. I was hoping to get away from spring bucket suspension by doing the ve subframe swap but it might not be worth it. Who knows I might have to choose a different chassis to build up
     

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