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Park brake problems

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by Banjo79, May 1, 2018.

  1. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure if ACL contemplates warranty on warranty which is what you are proposing.

    AFAIK, if something is repaired under warranty, it is just that.....repaired under the warranty. No further extensions apply.
     
  2. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    What I mean is that if you buy a product with a manufacturers warranty of 7 years, then repairs (=services which are covered by ACL) should be of an standard appropriate to that product (which was warranted for 7 years).

    For ACL to take a view that once a warranty job is done, there is no further obligation on the quality of the service in doing their warranty job is, well to put it mildly, odd.

    Further, for the manufacturer to say their service is only warranted for 2 years is just cheapening the lengthy warranted product one purchased. To me it seems like a manufacturer is only half backing their product/brand in such cases.

    So it’s not warranty on warrant per se. And since ACL does cover product purchases and service provision, the way I see it, if product a has 7 year warranty, service of that product should be equally backed with its own 7 year warranty ;) And keeping in mind that ACL does not define a duration for the statutory warranty (for products or services) such a view can’t be considered crazy :cool:

    But IANAL and haven’t heard of any legal case clarifying such so it would be interesting to read about such a case if any exist :)
     
  3. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    To clarify, my understanding is that if rectification work is undertaken during a warranty period, it will be warranted for the remainder of the original warranty period, i.e. the clock does not start ticking again for the rectificaiton work.
     
  4. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Curious, not a criticism, just curious how you arrive at your understanding. Was it by reading the legislation itself or reading some interpretation of ACL provided by a business via one other their “documents”?

    I don’t have such an opinion because by that logic, if you have 2 days left on your product warranty, then any warranty work effectively only has 2 days of warranty. Such a view would completely side steps the issue of statutory warranty on service provision (warrant the quality of workmanship done by the spanner twirler).

    And we must remember that your statutory warranty does not have a specific length defined legislation so their is quite some leeway to interpret the situation to the consumers benefit.

    As is, I haven’t read any specific clause within ACL which limits statutory warranty length based on the fact it’s a warranty repair. It all seems like a business interpretation which conveniently side steps the issue of statutory warranty on workmanship.
     
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  5. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Its an interesting point about warranty extension. What if you a new motor installed under warranty with only a few days left?
     
  6. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    We both already agree that manufacturer & statutory warranty are not the same and never will be.

    I'm not saying that statutory warranty under ACL is limited by a repair under a manufacturer's or statutory warranty.

    My point is that the manufacturer's warranty clock does not start ticking again once a defect has been rectified under warranty. i.e. a defect rectified at say month 83 of an 84 month warranty isn't going to have another 84 month warranty applied to it.

    ACL and its statutory warranty parameters may decide differently but I'm not aware of this being tested.
     
  7. chrisp

    chrisp Active Member

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    My understanding is that it comes down to ‘reasonableness’. If your car worked perfectly for the length of the “manufacturer’s warranty” but fell apart the next day, that wouldn’t be considered to be reasonable life for a car, so the manufacturer does have an onus beyond the stated warranty period.

    Similarly, if you had an engine failure a few days before the warranty expired, it would be considered unreasonable if the manufacturer repaired it just enough to get past the warranty period.

    I do recall a court case over a television warranty where the repair cost was more than the worth of the television. The manufacturer claimed that it was out of warranty and so it wasn’t their responsibility. However, the court ruled that an expensive television would be reasonably expected to last longer than the warranty period so ruled against the manufacturer.
     
  8. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    So I had to bite the bullet and have installed, yet again, a new park brake module, at my expense this time! Also got new subframe bushes while it was off, hoping it was the last time it would be off and also an updated tailgate button installed. Needed the car over the holidays working and Holden initially offered no suggestions, since there wasn't a code and it wasn't carrying on while they were driving it. My gamble didn't pay off, and now its even worse. It will now quite often not even hold on a mild hill, yet other times its fine on a steep one. Was told I should never use park brake to hold the car on a hill anyway without park! Admittedly since last module replacement, I do go into neutral and allow the weight of the car onto the brakes before going into Park.
    Went back in for 3rd time, now also for a severe inconsistent rattle coming from the rear, like a vibrating frameless number plate. I initially thought something in the tailgate since they'd done the button and the sound seemed to come from inside the cabin, but I'm almost sure now its from rear passenger side wheel area, as I've heard it from the outside at idle when it happened once in park. Of course the sound wasn't there when they drove it. Park brake was readjusted, rechecked, with the diagnosis that the EPB problem is caused by non OEM rotors (stock size dba 4000) that are possibly warped and noise may be from mild "after market" exhaust leak and to take to exhaust specialist, WTF!
    Took it to my normal mechanic that checked the boots, rotors etc. and for what's causing the noise. They're all wearing, but still perfectly acceptable. Noise from rear wasn't present at the time unfortunately and he had no clue either. He pulled the below fault codes that miraculously appeared less than 24hrs after Holden had it and said for sure its electrical and laughed at the idea of warped dba rotors causing intermittent EPB application. He said before he started doing any more, I should return to Holden with codes.
    4th visit to Holden with fault codes in hand went no where fast. Was told until stock rotors, pads and boots are installed they're not touching it. Anyone have any suggestions?
     

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  9. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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  10. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Banjo, was it Holden that again replaced the EPB hardware at cost to you? If so it’s odd they are they not providing warranty on the supplied parts and the workmanship and such behaviour seems to imply they know it’s a GM/H design issue and/or they know their workmanship is poor. Either way odd they want to wipe their hands of it all.

    In any case, you’ve had, what, maybe 3 to 5 trips to the dealer before they replaced the EPB under warranty. And that only lasted just over a year before you again had issues and multiple trips to the dealer.

    As such, even a minor fault under ACL becomes a major fault if repeated repair attempts have been made to fix it. In your case, two or three adjustments which didn’t resolve the issue, culminating in a EPB replacement unit that lasted just over a year so the fault still exists. I’d suggest such would rise to the major fault classification under ACL. But, a handbrake is a critical safety item, so failures with EPB must be considered a major fault under ACL.

    Either way, their is no escaping the situation you have a ACL major faculty on your hands. So, as I suggested in post #51, it’s time to talk to a consumer affairs/lawyer and discuss excersising your ACL right for a full refund due to it being a major fault classification (on multiple grounds).

    Also seems to me like it’s some fundamental flaw in GM/H designing a serviceable EPB system. So sounds like it’s time to get rid of your lemon via ACL major fault and choosing a full purchase price refund, then go buy some other lime :p

    Do get your ducks in a row by having your vehicle itself, and the old replaced parts if you have them, inspected at an engineering workshop that specialises with such things (and can handle being an expert witness at a Tribunal hearing). Then hit both the dealer and Holden for full purchase price refund and your out of pocket (failed) repair costs.

    The fact the dealer/Holden is blaming the aftermarket rotors could be good for your argument, especially if they haven’t provided any evidence (measurements) that indicate oversize or warped drums making them outside Holdens specs. Same for blaming non working hand brake on an exhaust system o_O

    Time for the Tribunal it seems...
     
  11. mpower

    mpower Well-Known Member

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    this is absolutely how warranty works. i don't know about in cars, but in retail this is 100% correct and i can't see cars being any different.

    The only thing to consider is statutory warranty, which is as long as a piece of string.
     
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  12. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Where do you get this understanding from? any references?

    What about having an engine failure 2 weeks before a manufacturers warranty expiry, does having the engine replaced mean you will only get a 2 week warranty on the replacement engine and on the workmanship (rhetorical)? I’d think not...
    ... longer in some cases ;)

    (just look at how almost 20 year old cars are being bought back because of airbag issues - and I’d suspect in some cases they are being bought back for considerably more than ‘market value’ if not original purchase price)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  13. mpower

    mpower Well-Known Member

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    near the end of warranty periods you will find it's a bit more grey and at the discretion of those providing the warranty. But usually it's failure after the period ends. Warranties are also based on the level of fault. A minor failure only requires remedy or replacement. Major generally the same or a refund. Consumer law is more on the consumer side now and you can go at it. But outside warranty you even still have rights - up to a point.

    source - i worked in IT retail. These are the manufacturers terms that you receive the balance of warranty. Think about it. You can't have an infinite warranty from one purchase - also you HAVE a new item.
     
  14. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Its not so simple...

    Warranty is something the law sees as coming from the seller so they can’t simply fob you off to the manufacturer., intact doing so is illegal. In law the seller can recover their warranty loss from the manufacturer.

    And if one buys a sh!t product, getting another sh!t product to replace the one that failed it is hardly a bonus... think about it ;):p

    Source: I have a brain and can read the legislation myself and as such I don’t swallow what comes from my employer’s interpretation of the law (obviously I have to follow work rules).
     
  15. mpower

    mpower Well-Known Member

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    i said nothing about fobbing you off to anyone, nor did i imply it.
     
  16. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Yes I know you didn’t say it but talking of manufacturers warranty implies someone other than the seller is responsible (in law) for the product they sold. But that’s not really the case (even though ACCC misinterprets parts of law due to what I suspect is classic regulatory capture) so I was just clarifying it.

    Guess I was just trying to (briefly) highlight the way warranty is seen in ACL and that people are better served if they think of a sellers warranty, or their statutory warranty, when they buy something :) and they should realise the manufacturers warranty is primarily a protection to the sellers so they feel nice, warm and protected when selling their wares :p consumer statutory warranty has much more to it than any seller or manufacturers warranty seems to provide :cool:
     
  17. VS 5.0

    VS 5.0 Well-Known Member

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    I understand where you are coming from @Skylarking but I am not sure where ACL contemplates the application of warranty on warranty.
     
  18. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    ^ I think we can all agree, for example, that a reasonable expectation is that a well maintained engine should last decades and many 100’s of 1000’s of kms. As such, if an engine is replaced under manufacturers 3 year warranty, 2 weeks before the warranty expires, then the expectation is that the engine should still last decades. So, it would be ludicrous for anyone to argue that the manufacturers warranty ends on the replacement engine in just 2 weeks time because warranty on warranty doesn’t exist.

    Regardless, ACL doesn’t mention any duration within the statutory warranty that covers all goods sold in this country. But whatever you buy downunder must be of durable quality under law and anything repair or replaced due to a fault does not diminish the fact the repair or replaced product must also be of durable quality. In that context, warranty on warranty does exist... sort of... because duration is not defined ;)

    In any case, the way I see it is that ACL statutory warranty is king and whatever the seller or the manufacturer thinks of their contracted warranty having standing is irrelevant (because any contract can’t contravene law, only provide terms outside law, in this case more consumer protection conditions). If a product fails and is repaired and fails again, then it is likley considered a major fault under ACL and people should be asking for their money back...
     
  19. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    Yes it was Holden that replaced the module for a second time, but at my insistence. This was when no diagnosis or options were given and the car was required for holidays. I was in a tight spot. The warped DBA rotor theory had not been mentioned at that stage. So since there was no fault codes and it was faultless on the day they had it, they couldn't/didn't offer any solution. And because it mimicked the problem with the original module, I had to just take the chance that it was indeed the same issue.
    Regarding chasing a full refund, until I win lotto and can afford an Audi S4/S6 Avant, I'm not sure there's a mid to large size wagon out there that could make me feel as warm and fuzzy as the Sportwagon (when it's working).
    Do the fault codes supplied give anyone any ideas. Could it be as simple as a bad connection along the line that needs some trusty dielectric grease? What's upstream of the EPB module that controls it? CAN-Bus module? BCM?
     
  20. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    @Banjo79, I can understand the frustrations in wanting to have a safe car for your holiday so can’t fault you in any way for trying to achieve such... the dealer on the other hand has a lot to answer for :oops:

    I hope you kept the old bits, since they weren’t the dealers to keep ;)

    Anyway as to the vehicle, there are various modules that involve the hydraulic brake system including hill hold assist but EPB is somewhat stand alone. It involves the EPB module itself (sitting under the car)and electrical cabling to the park brake switch itself (for applying and releasing the hand brake) and to the instrument cluster (for various bits of info) though the service manual mentions it uses GM-LAN for this so maybe the wiring to the instrument cluster is actually GM-LAN.

    Interestingly the service manual has this pearler:

    Symptoms - Park Brake
    Important: Review the system operation in order to familiarize yourself with the system functions. Refer to Park Brake System Description and Operation.
    Visual/Physical Inspection
    • Inspect for aftermarket devices which may affect the operation of the park brake system.
    • Inspect the easily accessible or visible system components for obvious damage or conditions which may cause the symptom.


    and it seems the dealer latched on to the first bullet point to wipe their hands of the issues.

    I’d arrange to speak to the dealer principle but ask to have the the Holden regional manager in attendance, preferably in person but on the phone can also work. Then I’d be raising all the issues and dealer contact times you’ve had trying to resolve the fault and the difficulty in getting to a point where you can feel you have a reliable and safe car (which culminated in module replacement for a second time). I’d also highlight whether the fault actually occurred and no fault code was logged or found by the dealer and that this lack of fault code isn’t reason to say there is no fault. End by asking them if your expectation of a safe and reliable car is unreasonable or acceptable. Then they can talk and their answer will give you an idea of how things will progress. Probably some ACL refreshers wouldn’t go astray.

    Other than that, you’ll have to go down the path of a full mechanical inspection and testing, then pull all connectors between the various modules and testing the wires for insulation resistance and cross talk, etc as well as inspecting the connectors themselves and all involved circuit boards... maybe even software... it will be a sh!t job (nasa had to do detail tests to find lead free solder and associated solder whiskers were at fault in Toyota unintended acceleration). Do you really want to go down that path? May be easier to retrofit a mechanical hand brake o_O
     

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