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Park brake problems

Discussion in 'VF Holden Commodore (2013 - 2017)' started by Banjo79, May 1, 2018.

  1. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    And to think that mine sometimes wouldn't release or apply, but more unnervingly would apply by itself. Only ever applied by itself 2 or 3 times at walking pace but still, shows the capabilities are there to have a self steering, self braking marvel to rival a Tesla on a Commodore budget. Good job Holden!
     
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  2. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha.
    Tesla, the autopilot that can run you into an Armco barrier.
    Holden as Tesla on a budget... scary, very scary...
     
  3. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    My Captiva has an EPB. 3 plus years and no issues.
     
  4. kleanphil

    kleanphil Active Member

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    Ive just booked my car in to have it's hand brake checked . The light was coming on but the hand brake was not engaged and would need re applying .
    i'll keep yas posted
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
  5. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but i’m sure that almost all of the 40,000 subi’s haven’t had an issue but all 40,000 vehicles are all being recalled for corrective action.
    Handbrake linings do wear out and cables do stretch so some adjustment is required but from what I understand (and suspect) about EPB systems, they have another layer of possible issues to contend with.

    I’ve previously posted the EPB calibration (adjustment) process that an owner could try (at their risk) which may possibly resolve some issues but my biggest concern is water ingress into the electronic module under the car causing erratic motor actuation as things rust up...

    As one JC member actually pulled apart his exhaust bimodal valve actuator only to find that water got in and gunked up the motor. As such I suspect there may be an issue with how GM seals such external electronics/motors from the elements (guess they are <<ip68 or <<ip66k?) which may be the root to underlying quality issue that cause EPB failure.

    So I’m curious what your issues are and what Holden do about them ;)
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2018
  6. Anthony121

    Anthony121 Well-Known Member

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    I've had an early VF and currently hve two VF vehicles. I have driven over 100k in these cars. No issues in the handbrake at all except for one adjustment at around 60k.

    Where are you getting your info from saying Holden have an issue with their EPB? You are just assuming? If only a handful of cars have an issue, it is not a recall.

    As for the bi-modal valves filling with water? How do you know if that vehicle they came from wasn't submerged in a flood?

    The EPB is way up high in the rear sub assembly which should not fill with water. I also don't believe the exhaust valves would fill with water under normal conditions.
     
  7. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Some JC members on this very forum have had EPB issues and @Banjo79 had his EPB assembly recently replaced gratis so I haven’t assumed there are issues, rather, I’ve read them here ;)

    I’ve also read the EPB section of the workshop manual so can see that there is much more complexity and with it the associated failure points that just don’t exist with the simple mechanical handbrake :eek:

    As to a handful of problem cars not making a recall, IMO you’re wrong with such reasoning. Just have a look at the global number of vehicles impacted by the takata recall verses the number that have actually had an issue. I’ve quoted the numbers previously and don’t care to quote them again but suffice to say that the % of vehicles that exhibited a problem verses the number recalled is so small it’s close to zero and that by your reasoning there shouldn’t be a recall at all... Luckily that’s aleady been decided by the auzzie regulators that it’s a dangerous enough situation that warrants the first ever mandatory (forced) recall down under (so it seems the manufacturers were dragged kicking and screaming in this one). And we haven’t read in the media about multiple instances of parked subaru’s rolling down hills slamming into buildings at the bottom of the street, so i’d think it’s not a frequent occurrence yet this warrants a recall (presumably a voluntary recall).

    So maybe you need to reevaluate your potentially dangerous reasoning and place a higher consideration on the consequence of failure rather than playing the manufacturers probability games.

    As to what happens with the bimodal valve motor, who knows, maybe @stooge can enlighten us, but ip68 should be able to cope with (I think) being submerged 1m under water for some hours so I’d expect being it’s on the underside of the vehicle it should have decent ‘ip’ rating that should protect from water jets (ip66k) and possibly from being submerged (ip68) if Holden wants a well designed robust EPB on the vehicle’s they build.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
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  8. stooge

    stooge Well-Known Member

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    some of the park brake actuators were faulty out of the box, they bind up and don't release.

    I had a brand new sv6 with less than 500km on it and the wife comes home and said it sounds and smells funny and it was like the brakes were on but the light on the dash is off.
    turns out the park brake was locked on hard, after screwing around with it for 20mins avoiding the superheated rotors I managed to get it to release.
    I took it to the dealer the next day and they replaced the actuator and said its not the first one that has done it that they have fixed, they even had spare ones in shop ready for the issue and this is a dealer in a small country town.
    I mentioned the issue in a post in 2015, it was the first week of owning that vehicle.


    as for the bi modal controllers filling with water I don't know why they were full of water, the mufflers were almost brand new, the paper stickers on them showed no signs of water they were perfectly clean and white(new looking).
    the vehicle they were off was in the driveway with its new exhaust on.

    I did not look to see if it had a tow ball because the only thing I can think of is boat ramp?


    both controllers were full of water and if it was from a boat ramp that might be something to think about if you have them and go to boat ramps.
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    That wouldn’t have been fun for the wife to deal with noise, smell and maybe smoke... yet she kept driving... which is not a disparagement on her, just a statement highlighting how normal people handle such things. Sadly Holden doesn’t seem to consider normal human behaviour and this EPB problem sounds like it’s another known issue that should have been handled via recall (as it is the only sure way to safely resolve the problem safely). Holden waiting for problems to occur with this seemingly known fault, with their dealer network ready to replace with parts they have on hand, is really asking for all sorts of litigation problems. Invariably some death will occurs as failing handbrakes and hills don’t make good bedfellows and if Holden’s handling becomes known to the plaintiffs legal team, all hell will brake loos for Holden.
    Thanks for the heads up as I didn’t think about the boat launch use case as I only occasionally tow a small box trailer.

    As it’s probable that the car could get a little wet launching a boat, Holden should have considered such a use case and ensured the external electrics could cope with the intended use of these vehicles (which for some people with tow bars and boats could mean getting a little wet). As such, if the motors can’t survive a short dunk in the juice, then obviously the product is not fit for service and these bits should be repaired, replaced or the product returned and purchase price refunded....

    Me, I wouldn’t launch a boat using anything other than a cheap 4x4 though I’ve even seen video of these trucks coming to grief doing such things.

    In any case, the same logic goes for the EPB electrics under the car... if it can’t survive a strong jet of water from hitting a puddle at speed or a short dunking if launching a boat (if that’s possible considering it’s location) then it’s not well designed to cope with expected normal use. As such it could then be considered and a4gued it is not of “mercandisable quality” (the old consumer law term, can’t remenber the equivalent current term) and that opens up a can of potential refund liabilities for Holden.

    IMO, it’s best if Holden handled this issue as a voluntary recall and sorted it out.... Holden seems to have different ideas about looking after it’s customer safety....
     
  10. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    I think anything under the car should be able to handle an occasional underbody wash, whether by hand or at the car wash.
    On another note, I now have a mild rubbery clunk, occasionally when turning left or right accelerating from standstill coming from the rear. Couldn't have anything to do with the arse of the car being removed to get to the module, could it????
     
  11. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    @Banjo79, pity you’ve had so many faults and so many attempts at getting them fixed (needing multiple trips to the dealer). Maybe it’s time to talk to a consumer affairs/lawyer and discuss excersising your ACL right for a full refund as the repeated attempts to get your car fixed must by now have crossed the threshold to be classified as major fault under law.
     
  12. BlackVXGTS

    BlackVXGTS Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone used this process successfully? I couldn't get the park brake lamp to flash and couldn't get the park brake cable to fully release.
     
  13. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    I haven’t tried the procedure as I had no need but presumably it should work as it’s info directly from workshop manual. So if it didn’t work for you, what vehicle did you try it on?

    But really, yu gotta wonder why processes defined in Holdens own work shop manual don’t actually work o_O
     
  14. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    With all due respect, generally it's because they aren't being followed correctly, i.e. to a tee.
     
  15. BlackVXGTS

    BlackVXGTS Well-Known Member

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    It's a very simple process. Also the manual has the message below, which is why I was wondering if any other members had used the process successfully.
    upload_2018-10-16_17-12-51.png
     
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  16. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, i didn't consider that the 'optional method' wouldn't provide some feedback to the service technician in some instances. Even if the optional method doesn't actually release the tension, one should either expect to see some warning message in the console. Performing a procedure which may possibly fail and have it provide zero feedback is just poor design. I'd hope the prefered scan tool method provides much more feedback to the person doing the task (as should the optional method).

    Presumably the failure to release would be due to gumming up of the EPB internals in some way resulting in the electric motors inability provide the needed torque to turn the internal bit to release the cable tension. So is this a confirmation that water proofing the underside electrics isn't as robust as we'd hope o_O
     
  17. 426Cuda

    426Cuda SUBLIME!

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    Yeah, sorry for the misunderstanding. I was more responding to SkyL' comment about why Holden's processes as defined in the user manual don't work. Not to say they are necessarily always correct (in the manual) either. I've been guilty of not following their steps correctly myself, e.g. when programming the seat settings to the keys, on the drivers door buttons.
    Good luck with the EPB.
     
  18. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    Here we go again. Booked in tomorrow at Holden "for adjustment". EPB not disengaging fully or even partially with any consistency, I believe fuel useage is up by roughly 5-10% on the highway and once again, it's activating aggressively while rolling along slowly. I must be getting the module wet with the hose. I'm also fairly close to the beach but dang, if this module needs replacing every 18 months and I'm paying, it may well be VE time.
     
  19. Banjo79

    Banjo79 Active Member

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    Service manager drove the car, EPB didn't autonomously apply, but he acknowledged the park brake was not completely disengaging. Last "consumer warranty" replacment, parts and labour is covered by 2 year warranty but because no fault code is present, I'll be paying, with the part then sent off for "testing".
    Is there any chance something else is at play, since unlike last time, my park brake is holding well and I'm not getting an engine light?
     
  20. Skylarking

    Skylarking Well-Known Member

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    @Banjo79, the question should be “why do I have to pay anything when there is a demonstrated fault that has been accepted as such by you, the dealer“.

    If a fault existed and was repaired under warranty, if it fails again it’s probably a quality of service issue or a design issue. Either way it needs to be corrected or the product replaced with something that isn’t defective by design, simple ACL.

    As is, your ACL statutory warranty should cover such repairs for parts and workmanship (and does not specify a statutory warranty duration).

    Holden covers such repairs for the duration of the vehicle warranty or 2 years (?) which ever is the longer.

    But for any company to repair a faulty product and then claim the repair only has a warranty of x is simply ignoring ACL. Put another way, to buy product with 7 year warranty, then have a failure occur in year 5 which is repaired under manufacturers warranty but only have 2 year repair warranty is just wrong (morally if not legally). I’d want the repair, which I’d considered a remanufacture of the faulty part, to have warranty as long as the original manufacturers warranty of 7 years. That’s because if the whole product was replaced, you’d get a new 7 year warranty. Anything less and it’s just short changing consumers.
     

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