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JC Political Thread - For all things political Part 2

Discussion in 'The Pub' started by minux, Apr 4, 2011.

  1. Noeleter

    Noeleter Active Member

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    If he had of called it 6 months ago or alternatively done something, anything in the last 6 months he would have a huge majority and probably a better senate.
     
  2. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Turnbulls political judgement has once again been shown to be sadly lacking.

    His first stint as Liberal leader ended badly for him. I can't see this time being any different. What a disappointment he has turned out to be so far.
     
  3. Troy711

    Troy711 Retired Old Fart Staff Member

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    Says a bit...

    [​IMG]
     
  4. c2105026

    c2105026 Active Member

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    A decade without any strong leader didn't help the ALP, neither. I mean, Mark ####ing Latham! Seriously !?!

    ALP may not have won 2010 outright but they were able to form govt and pass very large number of bills, still got on with the job (whether or not you agree with the direction is a separate question) Coalition since 2013 yes they stopped the boats (not sure if they were really a huge problem, but anyway...separate debate), yes they repealed the carbon tax (a backward step in my book, but again a separate debate) but....since then.....a free trade agreement with Japan.......ummmm.......nothing terribly nation building here, to the favour of the left or the right. Economy hasn't really improved. That was supposed to be their strong point. To me, that's the most disappointing thing.

    Normally when you have a double dissolution election, they are very decisive and the govt has a clear mandate in both houses. But here it was 50/50, the whole thing being decided by 50,000 votes or so. A visionary leader would develop a suite of reforms that would please the left and right of the senate so they could be easily passed. Eg. reform the welfare system in exchange for cracking down on corporate tax avoidance. But on the front benches of either side there are no likely candidates for this nation-building role.

    In fact, I would say that the budget is so buggered, you need to have left-flavoured and right flavoured approaches - just one approach won't close the income/expenditure gap enough.
     
  5. Troy711

    Troy711 Retired Old Fart Staff Member

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    And who's responsible for the hole in the budget?
     
  6. figjam

    figjam Donating Member

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    The average Australian voter, who voted in the scatter-brain minority parties who overdosed on self importance, imploded on self destruct mode, and resulted in the dog’s breakfast of the previous Parliament. And now we have done it again.

    Can somebody please tell Bill that the counting is all but over, the ALP are not in power, and he should be telling us how he would have run the country, instead of telling us how the Liberals are not going to run the country.

    South Island NZ is looking a great place to emigrate to.
     
  7. c2105026

    c2105026 Active Member

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    Who was responsible for the hole in the budget? We all are. To solve the budgetary concerns of the nation, it will mean many of us, indeed most of us, will have to be worse off at least in the short term. This is through higher taxes and or less expenditure on services. No one will ever vote for a candidate who will make them or parts of society they are concerned with, be worse off.
     
  8. Rajesh Koothrappali

    Rajesh Koothrappali Banned

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    The ALP. Specifically Kevin Rudd. We were in surplus when he became PM. And he squandered the entire surplus in RECORD time, even before the full force of the GFC hit. In fact he (and his Government) racked up a RECORD debt in RECORD time.

    If only that were true - nobody would vote for the ALP or the Greens!
     
  9. c2105026

    c2105026 Active Member

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    Annnnd the resident LNP staffer is back on air......

    How has your evening been?

    In answer to your question, looking at the data up til the GFC Revenue kept up with expenditure. 2007-2008 was a small deficit but nothing that major.

    Then when GFC hit. For one to two years there was a 5 percent year on year decline as the expenditure kept growing. Whether or not this was the best thing to do depends on your preference of economics. Without stimulus it could have been worse or the same. Without the stimulus, the revenue could have dropped off more.

    This is where the damage really happens.....ever since then the budget has been running at maybe a 10% deficit, and year after year the deficit piles up. Under both parties. Before we go pointing fingers, Libs have had three years to make an impact. I wouldn't expect the whole problem to be removed, but at least do something people.

    They might have had a hostile senate but they aren't going away anytime soon so it might be time to change tactics in light of the environment they find themselves in. Pointing fingers without action never, ever gets results.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  10. Reaper

    Reaper Tells it like it is.

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    The opposition parties have to accept a significant amount of blame for the economy as without fail voted down every single spending saving measure put to them often for nothing more than political points scoring.

    Well the plan is for them to be decisive however in the past they have been very hit/miss with more misses than hits recently. Malcom Fraser called a DD in 1983 and lost government because of it and Bob Hawke tried again in 1987 but didn't have the numbers to get his then "Australia Card" thru in a workable format.

    That was largely because tax receipts were for the previous financial year when companies were doing very well.

    A deficit at the time was entirely the right thing to do however the implementation of spending was nothing short of negligent. As a value for money spent, our return was very poor and we could/should have achieved far more at a significantly lower spend.

    From memory it's only 1 - 3% but could stand to be corrected on that one. However either way, as above - when the opposition torpedo's every single budget cutting measure then the country is truly ####ed. What is even more damning is when they roll it out at the next election (a-la the one we just had) as their own policies.

    Unfortunately waving a magic wand doesn't get results either. The senate needs to get real and deliver their real function as a house of review rather than a house of 'obstruct every ####ing thing we can'.
     
  11. c2105026

    c2105026 Active Member

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    I don't think the opposition is adverse to budget saving measures, just the ones that were put forth. But indeed even if every single measure from the 2014 budget were passed the deficit would reduce but would still be there. Whilst the opposition could have passed Coalitions budget savings measures in senate, conversely the Coalition could have introduced reforms that were more ideologically neutral, and more likely to be passed.

    Basically the budget seems to be based around a pre GFC growth level. Quite often after a downturn, things go gangbusters and the budget sorts itself out. We haven't seen this since the GFC. As an example, the ASX 200 has only grown 10% since early 2010. Maybe the economy as we see it now is the new normal.

    You could cut back on expenditure to reflect perpetually sluggish economy but do it too much is electoral suicide. It's easy to give the voter what they want but if/when it has to be called in, there is a voter revolt. If we as a populace want the budget to be fixed, we need to accept such measures that will permit that, be they focused on rich on poor. Just as those on the left must accept eg Medicare copayment, those on the right must accept eg restrictions on negative gearing. One ideological angle alone won't sustainably fix the budget.
     
  12. Rajesh Koothrappali

    Rajesh Koothrappali Banned

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    Oh please! You're not that naive. Blocking for the sake of blocking as opposed to for valid, or even semi-valid, reasons is typical of any opposition. Yes, I said ANY. It's a tactic commonly used to make the govt. of the day look bad and ultimately win an election. The sheeple believe the opposition and the govt. can't, for whatever reason, communicate with the sheeple effectively.
     
  13. c2105026

    c2105026 Active Member

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    Maybe the opposition opposed the budget saving measures put forth because they thought they weren't worthy? Very explicitly against party platform? They have every right to do that. To do otherwise would be a disservice to voters and supporters who put them there in the first place.
     
  14. mpower

    mpower Well-Known Member

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    I think you may have forgotten why opposition parties exist.
     
  15. Rajesh Koothrappali

    Rajesh Koothrappali Banned

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    I know why they exist. Unfortunately the opposition parties themselves often, almost always, forget why they're there. Blocking for the sake of blocking, to disrupt the government and make it harder to actually govern is not productive.

    How about provide the alternative policies, you know, what you're SUPPOSED to do when you're in opposition.

    "Opposition" isn't meant to mean fight against the government in politics. It is meant to mean provide an opposing view, position, policy, etc. Why can't any opposition work with a government to come to a compromise for introducing policy?

    And know this - I am not discussing this from a particular party point of view. This is apolitical.
     
  16. mpower

    mpower Well-Known Member

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    everyone agrees when it comes to two things, payrises and terrorists.

    apart from that it'll generally be party line, as it is written, as it will be done.

    good policy often does get passed, happens all the time. So does bad policy.
     
  17. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Let's be fair here. Under Abbott, who became known as "Dr. No" by Labor, obstructing or resisting proposed legislation was very common. Both parties have been excessively guilty of forgetting just what they are in Parliament for over recent years. It's not just for their egos or for party principles - it's allegedly for the national interest. Neither side can take the high moral ground on this one.

    Australia has now reached the stage where the electorate is utterly pissed off with the in-fighting, bitching, name-calling and infantile behaviour that passes for parliamentary process these days. Both sides received a shot across their bows from the electorate. They NEED to find some common ground, put their egos to bed and start working for the national good. There will always be basic party opposition to the other side's policies but compromise is definitely needed on some essential matters such as the budget and national debt. Labor has shot itself in the foot to some extent by admitting that they would use some of the Government's proposed budget savings for themselves if they had won the election, so they can hardly turn around now and continue to block them. But the amounts involved are small - much more agreement, much better and fairer policies need to be forthcoming. Some of the Government's measures were truly punitive and unfair, such as backdating Superannuation taxation to 2007. They should abandon that idea and look elsewhere for savings.

    Personally, though I strongly believe in solid national defence, the submarine contract seems like lunacy to me. 50 billion for twelve subs. We have six at present and the Navy is pressed to have more than 2 in service at any one time because of personnel shortages. Where the hell do they think they can find the crews for twelve vessels (even allowing for the next fifteen years growth in naval personnel numbers)? To be crying poor mouth about the budget, then signing off a proposal to spend 50 billion on submarines, seriously undermines your financial credibility. Perhaps that one needs to be re-thought, too. Large chunks of money have to come from somewhere and drip-feeds of a billion here, two billion there won't cut it.

    Basic party policy differences need to be considered. Labor will always focus, and do well with voters, on health and education. The Coalition fares badly here, despite any increases in funding they may announce. It was savaged over them in this election because talks about cuts in either area resonates strongly within the electorate. Those two issues ARE basic to a strong and robust future economy. They are two issues where the gulf between the two sides should be much, much narrower.

    Shorten has indicated a calmer, more collaborative term in Parliament over the next three years. Turnbull needs to concur and the two sides need to both pick up their act, otherwise minor parties will continue to predominate and thwart whichever party is in power from achieving much at all.
     
  18. Rajesh Koothrappali

    Rajesh Koothrappali Banned

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    Great post Calaber.

    But you must have missed Shorten's speech on election night. He basically said he was going to do everything in his power to disrupt the coalition's ability to govern.
     
  19. Gaiter

    Gaiter Active Member

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    Any source on the Navy struggling to keep two subs in service? Cause you're right. That's bad financial management to order 12 more and take our capabilities from 2/6 in service to 2/18 in service. Sigh.

    Edit: However them being manufactured in Adelaide creates Jobs and Growth so I guess there is that? And apparently the current submarines are due for retirement in 10 years.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2016
  20. Calaber

    Calaber Nil Bastardo Carborundum

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    Raj

    I think at that time he thought there was a real chance of a hung parliament or even a Labor win. Boo hoo Bill.

    The results for both parties are sobering. I reckon he now realises that tough talk about continuing to disrupt the government won't wash with voters anymore and national interest has been subjugated to party politics and bickering far too long.

    Both parties will now be under much more critical scrutiny from voters who care IMO.
     

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